BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

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It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

Who the hell are you? He answered, dont like the answer - tough ***** The guy has been nauseously patient with your inquisition. Go back to your man written Bible verse interpretations by Luther or whichever disgruntled clergy du jour you Protestants follow and song on, which edition are you using now?

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

Who the hell are you? He answered, dont like the answer - tough ***** The guy has been nauseously patient with your inquisition. Go back to your man written Bible verse interpretations by Luther or whichever disgruntled clergy du jour you Protestants follow and song on, which edition are you using now?

---

It's responses like these that show what I'm saying is hitting hard because there's a lot of truth to it.

And it also helps my cause tremendously when I'm passionately opposed by a Roman Catholic who believes the apostle Paul was NOT inspired, and that their Church should validate and welcome homosexual couples. You will know them by their fruits, folks.

I believe some of yall be cray, yo! Seems to be arguing/avoiding about minners. Bigger fish out there fellas.

Liberalism is unBiblical and incompatible with Christianity & the Bible, yet he pushes it.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

xfrodobagginsx said:

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Liberalism is unBiblical and incompatible with Christianity & the Bible, yet he pushes it.

---

"Liberalism" in the modern sense, yes. Classical liberalism is largely based upon biblical principles. This is one reason that many Christians are classical liberals (aka "conservatives").

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

---

He's not interested in any thoughtful debate or conversation, just boosting his own ego. It's better to just ignore someone like that.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

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DallasBear9902 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

---

He's not interested in any thoughtful debate or conversation, just boosting his own ego. It's better to just ignore someone like that.

---

He's a strange one. So rabidly anti-RCC he makes me take a more respectful look at the Roman Catholics and Orthodox.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

---

And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

---

Are you guys really this dense? Unless you wrote the article from that link, it doesn't tell me what you believe.

I really think you guys are just afraid of having to explain how that article from your link reflects your own belief, because by having to actually process what it says, and then confess what it says as your belief - you might actually realize it doesn't make sense or ring true.

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

---

He's not interested in any thoughtful debate or conversation, just boosting his own ego. It's better to just ignore someone like that.

---

LOL. I'm the ONLY one attempting to engage in actual thought. I've encountered a bunch of people here who must reject thinking for themselves in order to preserve their identity. You guys are the ones laboring to preserve your egos. Pride is your biggest obstacle.

Oldbear83 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

---

He's not interested in any thoughtful debate or conversation, just boosting his own ego. It's better to just ignore someone like that.

---

He's a strange one. So rabidly anti-RCC he makes me take a more respectful look at the Roman Catholics and Orthodox.

---

Not surprised in the least bit. I've known there was something really off about you and your claim to Christianity for a long time. You're only confirming it to others. No true Christian would defend or have a "respectful" look at churches which distort the gospel and steal from Jesus' glory through their idolatry.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

---

And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

---

It's the truth.

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

---

And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

---

It's the truth.

---

In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

---

And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

---

It's the truth.

---

In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

---

Not sure why you have such a beef with the Church now that you've proven most Catholic theologians are really fundamentalist Protestants. But I'll gladly defer to the expert.

There is no right answer for the guy. Actually, you are not allowed to have your own opinion, rely on a Church interpretation or Vatican document. Either you agree with him or you are a Satanic agent. He is what gives fundamentalist Protestants a bad name, not much different from Moslem zealots listen to them or you are going to Hell.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

---

Are you guys really this dense? Unless you wrote the article from that link, it doesn't tell me what you believe.

I really think you guys are just afraid of having to explain how that article from your link reflects your own belief, because by having to actually process what it says, and then confess what it says as your belief - you might actually realize it doesn't make sense or ring true.

---

Welp, I suppose we should all stop reciting the Nicene Creed. Since we didn't author it, then it cannot possibly tell others what we believe. We should all stop quoting theologians while we are at it.

There is no rule of the universe that your questions must be answered precisely in the exact manner you want them answered. If you believe otherwise, please provide the chapter and verse reference they put you in charge. Even if we were in a format where you had the authority to dictate how someone answers, incoperation by reference is a perfectly acceptable manner to answer in. People of good will know this.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

BigGameBaylorBear said:

---

DallasBear9902 said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

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What an incurious weirdo. It would have taken less time to just read the link. Why would you demand someone to reproduce work that already exists unless you are intentionally acting in bad faith.

I'd love to see this guy take his act on the road to Islamabad or Mogadishu.

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He's not interested in any thoughtful debate or conversation, just boosting his own ego. It's better to just ignore someone like that.

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LOL. I'm the ONLY one attempting to engage in actual thought. I've encountered a bunch of people here who must reject thinking for themselves in order to preserve their identity. You guys are the ones laboring to preserve your egos. Pride is your biggest obstacle.

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No. Everyone has tried to answer your questions in good faith, the links are there to help you. You refuse to answer any of our questions too. You're not genuine, I'm not so sure you're even a Christian, this could all be some elaborate troll job.

Vice President JD Vance hanging out with Pope Leo’s brother, the Holy Uncle, at the UFC Freedom 250 Fight Night at the White House.

This is the greatest timeline in human history. pic.twitter.com/W3xZPkNhtU

— Thomas Hern (@ThomasMHern) June 15, 2026

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- No, repenting and believing are from the heart. They're not performative actions like sacraments, which is what I was clearly referring to. If you can't comprehend these kinds of basic things, then you make it very difficult to have an intelligent, rational discussion with.

---

So you simply ignore the passages like Acts 2:38 that link baptism and belief.

Or that belief that truly saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: it is "faith working through love." Gal. 5:6

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- do you know what happens to babies or 14th century Native Americans? Since you don't, stop asserting what you don't know.

---

The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses these situations. What does your made-up church say?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- Jesus and his apostles NEVER designated the refusal of the Eucharist as a "mortal sin", or any other act of disobedience for that matter, which would negate everything they said about salvation. If such sins existed, then the fact this is nowhere explicitly and clearly mentioned would be a devastating oversight by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture and the apostles. "Mortal sin" is exactly the kind of man-made distortion of the gospel I was talking about.

---

1 John 5:16-17 calls out a distinction between sin that leads to death and sin that doesn't.

Gal. 5:19-21 provides another explicit list of "works of the flesh" and warns: "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

Hebrews 10:2627 speaks to willful, knowing sin against God: "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire."

Matthew 12:3132 discussed the Unforgivable Sin.

The rejection of Mortal sin didn't come about until the 16th century. It was acknowledged by Church Fathers as early as 2nd century, starting with Origen, Augustine, John Chrysostem, Ambrose, etc.

Your view is completely unbiblical and made up 1500 years after Jesus.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- Regarding Judas Iscariot, you're simply running away from the fact that if he ate Jesus' flesh and drank his blood, but did not have eternal life, then Jesus words were falsified.

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It's not a simple "running away." Most scholars agree that received communion, but he walked away from Jesus and committed mortal sin. Jesus' words weren't falsified. They held true. Jesus never said that one could NOT reject eternal life.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- The demons believe "God is one", not in Jesus for their salvation. It's plainly obvious to any intelligent, rational person that believing in Jesus for salvation was an offer for mankind, not demons. This is just a stupid argument that you keep repeating without actually thinking about what you're arguing.

---

Where does the bible make this claim? God gave the angels a choice. They know the truth that "God is one."

True belief is more than head knowledge, which the demons have (James 2:19). It's more than just believing you're saved even the Pharisees had that (John 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: it is "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6).

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- doing the will of the Father is to "believe in whom he has sent". If "believing" meant doing everything the Father wills, then none of us could be called "believers" because we all fail.

---

When one fails, commits a mortal sin, all they need to do is to repent and go to confession.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

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I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

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It depends on what you mean by justification.

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Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

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I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

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We're not saved by our works.

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And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

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It's the truth.

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In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

---

Not sure why you have such a beef with the Church now that you've proven most Catholic theologians are really fundamentalist Protestants. But I'll gladly defer to the expert.

---

Seriously - how can you feel good about your beliefs, when you had to totally dodge my question and defer it to someone else? Do you even know whether the "expert" you deferred to even solves the problem with your view? Do you even know if you agree with him?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

---

Sam Lowry said:

---

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

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And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

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It's the truth.

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In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

---

Not sure why you have such a beef with the Church now that you've proven most Catholic theologians are really fundamentalist Protestants. But I'll gladly defer to the expert.

---

Seriously - how can you feel good about your beliefs, when you had to totally dodge my question and defer it to someone else? Do you even know whether the "expert" you deferred to even solves the problem with your view? Do you even know if you agree with him?

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I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it.

Coke Bear said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- No, repenting and believing are from the heart. They're not performative actions like sacraments, which is what I was clearly referring to. If you can't comprehend these kinds of basic things, then you make it very difficult to have an intelligent, rational discussion with.

---

So you simply ignore the passages like Acts 2:38 that link baptism and belief.

Or that belief that truly saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: it is "faith working through love." Gal. 5:6

==> Acts 2:38 does not say that water baptism is needed to be performed in order to be saved. Galatians 5:6 does not say that we must perform works in order to be saved.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- do you know what happens to babies or 14th century Native Americans? Since you don't, stop asserting what you don't know.

---

The Catechism of the Catholic Church discusses these situations. What does your made-up church say?

==> they discuss it, but it doesn't mean they know. My "made-up church" is the whole body of true believers in Jesus - of which the Roman Catholic church is not part.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- Jesus and his apostles NEVER designated the refusal of the Eucharist as a "mortal sin", or any other act of disobedience for that matter, which would negate everything they said about salvation. If such sins existed, then the fact this is nowhere explicitly and clearly mentioned would be a devastating oversight by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who inspired Scripture and the apostles. "Mortal sin" is exactly the kind of man-made distortion of the gospel I was talking about.

---

1 John 5:16-17 calls out a distinction between sin that leads to death and sin that doesn't. ==> this doesn't mean eternal or soul death. You and your church are reading that into it.

Gal. 5:19-21 provides another explicit list of "works of the flesh" and warns: "I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." ==> works of the flesh is what we all do, because we are all sinners. Even Paul admits to struggling with the flesh. By this standard, NO ONE will go to heaven. Clearly, this is NOT what Paul means. He obviously is referring to people who choose to do these things continuously and unrepentantly as a lifestyle.

Hebrews 10:2627 speaks to willful, knowing sin against God: "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire." ==> notice that this verse only says "receiving knowledge of the truth", not actually BELIEVING the truth. Obviously, this verse is talking about those who reject Jesus or who are apostate.

Matthew 12:3132 discussed the Unforgivable Sin. ==> which does not apply to believers.

The rejection of Mortal sin didn't come about until the 16th century. It was acknowledged by Church Fathers as early as 2nd century, starting with Origen, Augustine, John Chrysostem, Ambrose, etc. ==> the rejection of "mortal sin" came about with the apostles, in Scripture.

Your view is completely unbiblical and made up 1500 years after Jesus. ==> False

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- Regarding Judas Iscariot, you're simply running away from the fact that if he ate Jesus' flesh and drank his blood, but did not have eternal life, then Jesus words were falsified.

---

It's not a simple "running away." Most scholars agree that received communion, but he walked away from Jesus and committed mortal sin. Jesus' words weren't falsified. They held true. Jesus never said that one could NOT reject eternal life.

==> Jesus' words would be falsified if Judas ate his flesh, but did not have eternal life and will not be raised on the last day. You're still running away from the clear text.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- The demons believe "God is one", not in Jesus for their salvation. It's plainly obvious to any intelligent, rational person that believing in Jesus for salvation was an offer for mankind, not demons. This is just a stupid argument that you keep repeating without actually thinking about what you're arguing.

---

Where does the bible make this claim? God gave the angels a choice. They know the truth that "God is one." ==> do you honestly believe that the demons could believe in Jesus and be saved?

True belief is more than head knowledge, which the demons have (James 2:19). It's more than just believing you're saved even the Pharisees had that (John 5:39). True, saving faith is one lived and exhibited daily: it is "faith working through love" (Galatians 5:6). ==> true saving faith, rather, is what the thief on the cross exhibited, and what the house of Cornelius exhibited, both who were clearly saved. And they performed no works whatsoever. They only believed.

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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- doing the will of the Father is to "believe in whom he has sent". If "believing" meant doing everything the Father wills, then none of us could be called "believers" because we all fail.

---

When one fails, commits a mortal sin, all they need to do is to repent and go to confession. ==> but if they die before then, then they go to Hell according to your belief. They can miss mass without a good reason (and how one defines what a "good reason" is just adds to the continuing buildup of confusion of the Roman Catholic system) then die before confession, and they go to Hell. This is a complete denial and distortion of the gospel.

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Responses in in bold above.

Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

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I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

---

And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

---

It's the truth.

---

In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

---

Not sure why you have such a beef with the Church now that you've proven most Catholic theologians are really fundamentalist Protestants. But I'll gladly defer to the expert.

---

Seriously - how can you feel good about your beliefs, when you had to totally dodge my question and defer it to someone else? Do you even know whether the "expert" you deferred to even solves the problem with your view? Do you even know if you agree with him?

---

I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it.

---

Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

---

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

---

I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

---

It depends on what you mean by justification.

---

Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

---

I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

---

No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

---

And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

---

Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

---

We're not saved by our works.

---

And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

---

It's the truth.

---

In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

---

Not sure why you have such a beef with the Church now that you've proven most Catholic theologians are really fundamentalist Protestants. But I'll gladly defer to the expert.

---

Seriously - how can you feel good about your beliefs, when you had to totally dodge my question and defer it to someone else? Do you even know whether the "expert" you deferred to even solves the problem with your view? Do you even know if you agree with him?

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I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it.

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Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

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Give it a rest, you don't determine good faith, you not liking an answer doesn't disqualify it.

You really need to get some help with your hatred and obsession with the Catholic Church. Please get help.

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Blue Star for not reacting to his threat hold people down and pull their teeth.

FLBear5630I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it. said:

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Quote:

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Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

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Give it a rest, you don't determine good faith, you not liking an answer doesn't disqualify it.

You really need to get some help with your hatred and obsession with the Catholic Church. Please get help.

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Of course I can determine what is and what isn't good faith. I'm a honest thinking person. Being asked if you believe we are justified by faith AND works, and answering by only giving a link to a website is certainly NOT answering in good faith. You aren't very honest or intelligent if you think that it is.

And it continues to be obvious to the forum that the Roman Catholics here will spend post after post trying to skirt the issue. Perhaps one of you will be better than Sam and can answer the question for him? He seems to be tongue-tied.

And I also note the extreme irony of you, a Roman Catholic who rejects Paul's letters as inspired and who wants the Church to accept gay couples, trying to tell me about "good faith".

Oldbear83 said:

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FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Sam Lowry said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?

Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?

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https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0

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I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.

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It depends on what you mean by justification.

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Then answer the question with whatever caveats you want to add. Does it always have to be like pulling teeth with you? Always evasive, never direct.

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I've spent a considerable amount of time answering your questions in good faith, and I don't see that it's accomplished much. If you're really interested, maybe you can show some good faith by spending the time to read an article by a Catholic apologist who explains in the detail that you need. You won't lose your salvation or be possessed by demons if you click the link. Worst case scenario, you might learn something.

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No, you haven't answered in good faith. You've done what you always do, and that is answer without answering. I asked do YOU believe in justification by faith AND works. Do YOU believe salvation is by faith AND works. You deferred your answer to a link. But I didn't ask for what a link says, I asked for what YOU believe, in your own mind. If you can't express this for yourself but instead have to have someone or something else to answer for you, then I don't think you really believe it, you just know that you're supposed to believe it. That's a sign that you're just a tribalist, not a true Christian at heart. You're not going to be saved because of what a link says or what someone else believes. What are you going to do if you're standing in front of Jesus and you're asked why you should be saved? You gonna give Jesus a link to your Church's website?

YOU tell me what that link says. YOU explain it to me. It would mean that you yourself had to read it and make sense of it for yourself first, and decide that you do or don't actually believe it. If you're forced to personalize those beliefs in that link for yourself, you might even see the problem with those beliefs yourself. This whole discussion might even be moot.

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And when I'm done you'll call it Catholic double-talk, throw your hands up in despair, and cry out in a loud voice, "Why, WHY won't any honest Catholic answer my questions?" Sorry, I'm just not in the mood for another go-round.

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Well, let's be honest here (if we can). If you say we are saved by our faith and not by our works, but then also say that we are justified by our faith AND our works, then like it or not, that's talking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't be saved if you're not justified. If it's double talk, then it's double talk. If you don't want to be accused of that, then perhaps... don't do that?

Or, if you can present an argument where it's NOT double-talk, then I'd like to hear it. You said it depends on the meaning of "justified". So explain it to us without deferring to a link. I suspect that you're aware that your position is problematic, and that's the reason why you're bailing. And if that's the case, how am I not correct to "throw my hands up in despair" over the lack of honesty in these discussions? Please stop with the tiresome tactic of getting out of the conundrum by turning it around and making it about my personal flaws - that's been done to death, and intelligent people know this means you don't have an argument.

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We're not saved by our works.

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And this is your idea of answering in good faith?

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It's the truth.

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In biblical Christianity, yes.

Not so with Roman Catholicism. Your fear of actually answering my question makes that quite clear. So does the reaction from all the Catholics above.

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Not sure why you have such a beef with the Church now that you've proven most Catholic theologians are really fundamentalist Protestants. But I'll gladly defer to the expert.

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Seriously - how can you feel good about your beliefs, when you had to totally dodge my question and defer it to someone else? Do you even know whether the "expert" you deferred to even solves the problem with your view? Do you even know if you agree with him?

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I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it.

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Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

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Give it a rest, you don't determine good faith, you not liking an answer doesn't disqualify it.

You really need to get some help with your hatred and obsession with the Catholic Church. Please get help.

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Blue Star for not reacting to his threat hold people down and pull their teeth.

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^^^ And you're the grammar police?

BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it. said:

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Quote:

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Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

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Give it a rest, you don't determine good faith, you not liking an answer doesn't disqualify it.

You really need to get some help with your hatred and obsession with the Catholic Church. Please get help.

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Of course I can determine what is and what isn't good faith. I'm a honest thinking person. Being asked if you believe we are justified by faith AND works, and answering by only giving a link to a website is certainly NOT answering in good faith. You aren't very honest or intelligent if you think that it is.

And it continues to be obvious to the forum that the Roman Catholics here will spend post after post trying to skirt the issue. Perhaps one of you will be better than Sam and can answer the question for him? He seems to be tongue-tied.

And I also note the extreme irony of you, a Roman Catholic who rejects Paul's letters as inspired and who wants the Church to accept gay couples, trying to tell me about "good faith".

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You are truly entering into Zealot-land...


As for my views, I didn't say he wasn't inspired (your word, I would never use that word!). I said I didn't like him...

As for Gays? We all have our crosses to bear, I cannot picture a world where Jesus would shun people because they are sinners. It may also take more than one look into mere mortal's eyers for the lightning bolt bringing them to around to God's word kicks in. Except you, as inspired as you are. Should Gay's be able to receive the Sacraments? Not when in a state of Mortal Sin. To be Gay, but not act on it, is not a sin. So, they should be included. Otherwise, you would pull their teeth out until they changed?

So lets's delve into your believes, you believe we should shun sinners and they should not have access to God's word and community until they are sinless. How Christ-like of you... (sarcasm, you would actually believe it...) You are a Prince...

FLBear5630 said:

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BusyTarpDuster2017 said:

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FLBear5630I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it. said:

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Quote:

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Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

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Give it a rest, you don't determine good faith, you not liking an answer doesn't disqualify it.

You really need to get some help with your hatred and obsession with the Catholic Church. Please get help.

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Of course I can determine what is and what isn't good faith. I'm a honest thinking person. Being asked if you believe we are justified by faith AND works, and answering by only giving a link to a website is certainly NOT answering in good faith. You aren't very honest or intelligent if you think that it is.

And it continues to be obvious to the forum that the Roman Catholics here will spend post after post trying to skirt the issue. Perhaps one of you will be better than Sam and can answer the question for him? He seems to be tongue-tied.

And I also note the extreme irony of you, a Roman Catholic who rejects Paul's letters as inspired and who wants the Church to accept gay couples, trying to tell me about "good faith".

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You are truly entering into Zealot-land...


As for my views, I didn't say he wasn't inspired (your word, I would never use that word!). I said I didn't like him...

As for Gays? We all have our crosses to bear, I cannot picture a world where Jesus would shun people because they are sinners. It may also take more than one look into mere mortal's eyers for the lightning bolt bringing them to around to God's word kicks in. Except you, as inspired as you are. Should Gay's be able to receive the Sacraments? Not when in a state of Mortal Sin. To be Gay, but not act on it, is not a sin. So, they should be included. Otherwise, you would pull their teeth out until they changed?

So lets's delve into your believes, you believe we should shun sinners and they should not have access to God's word and community until they are sinless. How Christ-like of you... (sarcasm, you would actually believe it...) You are a Prince...

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So.. you're saying that Paul's letters, in which you described him as a "jerk", is the inspired word of God? God inspired Paul to be a "jerk"?

And regarding gays, be clear - you believe the Church should accept within its doors as part of the congregation, homosexual couples who are NOT repentant of their lifestyle? Do you believe your Church should recognize and bless same sex "unions"? Be clear, don't be evasive as you and your friends are prone to being.

FLBear5630I'm not dodging your questions. I'm just exhausted. Last word is yours, so have at it. said:

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Quote:

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Exhausted? You've been repeatedly responding to my posts. In any of your responses, you could have answered me in good faith. And if anyone should be exhausted, it should be me, in having to constantly hold you guys down and pull teeth just to get honest engagement.

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You really need to get some help with your hatred and obsession with the Catholic Church. Please get help.

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What true Christian would NOT hate the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church?

No, Paul was a jerk on his own. Holy Spirit probably made him better, imagine how insufferable he was before