Oldbear83 said:
For one thing, I believe you need to work on your grammar.
Also, a little anger management might be good for you.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
==> God NEVER demands that you DO anything for your salvation in the form of any sacrament. He doesn't require you to jump through hoops, "normatively" or not. Just believe. It's sad that your theology has warped the simple gospel.
I'm pretty sure that bible tells us that we have to REPENT, BELIEVE, and be BAPTIZED. That sounds like we have to do something. Even if you reject baptism (although that notion is anti-biblical), repenting and believing are doing something.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
=> But NONE of this is what Jesus said. You are putting your own stipulations into Jesus' mouth in order to fit your theology. He makes no exceptions. If there were exceptions, wouldn't Jesus have said so? Especially when it has to do with our eternal fate? And if there are exceptions, wouldn't that falsify what he said, since he made no exceptions?
Are you trying to argue that God can't grant exceptions? What about babies never baptized? What about 14th century Native Americans that never heard the Gospel? Why didn't God list exceptions when he talked about having faith?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
If, as you say, people "send themselves" to hell for refusing to do what Jesus instructed them regarding the Eucharist - then why doesn't he allow people to "send themselves" to Hell for any other act of disobedience? "You must be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" - I don't know a single person who has successfully obeyed this. And that includes Mary. So are we all "sending ourselves to Hell?
Any time someone commits a mortal sin, they choose to separate themselves from God. They send themselves to hell.
And that's what Hell is a complete separation from God.
Perfection Another bad eisegesis of the scriptures here. Jesus is NOT commanding us to be sinlessly flawless in every moment. He is calling us to be whole to become fully what God created us for.
Please look at the greater context of this chapter, which is the Sermon on the Mount, and specifically the last section of the chapter. Jesus is telling us to LOVE our enemies. Matt 5:48 is NOT about sinlessness. It's about LOVING like God.
BTW Mary was and is completely sinless.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Judas Iscariot OBEYED and ate and drank the Last Supper bread and wine. Jesus specifically said that those who do, HAVE eternal life and will be raised on the last day. He does not make exceptions. If Judas Iscariot was not saved to eternal life, then Jesus' statement is falsified, if his meaning was literal. Do you believe Judas was saved after eating the Last Supper?
Judas would have had eternal life, if he didn't throw it away and betray Jesus.
Your problem here is the false and unbiblical OSAS.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Also look at what else you falsify with your theology here. If someone believes in Jesus and puts their trust in him for their salvation, but they "could have" taken the Eucharist but fail to for whatever reason... then if they die and "send themselves" to Hell, then Jesus' words that "whosoever believes in me will not perish, but has eternal life" is falsified because here we have someone who did believe, but they DID perish and did NOT have eternal life.
The demons believe. I guess they don't go to hell.
Belief in Jesus is DOING the will of his Father Matt 7:21.
It's always amazing to me how when it suits Roman Catholicism, the argument is "those are Jesus' exact words!" but when Jesus says "you must be perfect" or "you must eat my flesh", since it puts RC doctrine in a quandary, the argument goes to "that's not what he really meant".
Regarding Judas Iscariot, you're simply running away from the fact that if he ate Jesus' flesh and drank his blood, but did not have eternal life, then Jesus words were falsified.
There's no quandary from the RC point of view. The Eucharist puts life within you unless and until you turn into an apostate like Judas Iscariot. It's just common sense.
Now from the magical OSAS point of view...yeah, that's a quandary.
It has nothing to do with a "magical OSAS view", it has everything to do with Jesus' literal words. Which you accept in one sense when it suits you, and deny in another sense when that suits you.
If Judas ate the Eucharist meal, yet ultimately did not have eternal life, and will not be raised by Jesus on the last day, then Jesus' words are falsified in John chapter 6. It IS a quandary for RC - that is, if they are willing to be honest about it and not squirm around it like you are trying to do.
Again, Catholics don't see communion as a one-time salvific event. We see it as a means of grace whereby we are sanctified unto salvation. You see sanctification and justification as wholly separate concepts. Catholics disagree. That's really all that needs to be said. Plenty of non-Catholics understand it even if they don't agree, but you refuse to understand it because you're preoccupied with these endless gotcha games.
Regarding your view on justification vs sanctification:
Consider what Paul said in Romans 10:10 - "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Do you see that God says justification happens entirely from what's in a person's heart and from belief? Not from any works or performance of any sacrament?
Consider Matthew 16, where the rich man asks what he must do to have eternal life: "Jesus said to him, If thou hast a mind to be perfect, go home and sell all that belongs to thee; give it to the poor, and so the treasure thou hast shall be in heaven; then come back and follow me."
Is this the magic formula, or was Jesus lying?
Of course you will say that selling one's possessions is an expression of the belief in one's heart. The same is true of the sacraments, and to the same purpose of perfection.
Yes, this was the magic formula at that time, to follow the commandments perfectly, thus being without sin, in order to be justified to eternal life - because Jesus had not died on the cross and paid for sin yet. They were still under the Law. Jesus was trying to make the people realize that under the Law, there is no way a person is going to be perfect, so that they needed a Savior.
Jesus death and resurrection brought on the new law of grace, which is the gospel that Paul was tasked to spread to the world.
Now answer the question: do you see that God is saying through Paul that justification happens from what's in a person's heart, NOT from what they do? Or are you saying that Scripture is wrong?
I see it saying we're justified because we believed. I don't see the "entirely" part.
If you say there are fish in the pond and I go and catch one, you'd be right to say I succeeded because I believed you. But I still had to go cast a line.
You also see it saying we're justified with the heart.
It doesn't need to say "entirely". If it says that one is justified with the heart through belief, then clearly justification is not contingent upon anything outside of the heart, such as our action; nor would it make sense for us to be justified in addition through our action if we were already justified with our heart of belief.
Your fish in the pond example completely misses the point - with your heart you're justified, not with your action. That's what the verse clearly says. You did not go cast a line with your heart. You only believed with your heart. You're trying to force your works-based justification into a verse that clearly says the opposite. There just isn't a way around this without being dishonest or in denial of what's right in front of you.
Neither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness.
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
Not at all. Both passages are true.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
==> God NEVER demands that you DO anything for your salvation in the form of any sacrament. He doesn't require you to jump through hoops, "normatively" or not. Just believe. It's sad that your theology has warped the simple gospel.
I'm pretty sure that bible tells us that we have to REPENT, BELIEVE, and be BAPTIZED. That sounds like we have to do something. Even if you reject baptism (although that notion is anti-biblical), repenting and believing are doing something.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
=> But NONE of this is what Jesus said. You are putting your own stipulations into Jesus' mouth in order to fit your theology. He makes no exceptions. If there were exceptions, wouldn't Jesus have said so? Especially when it has to do with our eternal fate? And if there are exceptions, wouldn't that falsify what he said, since he made no exceptions?
Are you trying to argue that God can't grant exceptions? What about babies never baptized? What about 14th century Native Americans that never heard the Gospel? Why didn't God list exceptions when he talked about having faith?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
If, as you say, people "send themselves" to hell for refusing to do what Jesus instructed them regarding the Eucharist - then why doesn't he allow people to "send themselves" to Hell for any other act of disobedience? "You must be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" - I don't know a single person who has successfully obeyed this. And that includes Mary. So are we all "sending ourselves to Hell?
Any time someone commits a mortal sin, they choose to separate themselves from God. They send themselves to hell.
And that's what Hell is a complete separation from God.
Perfection Another bad eisegesis of the scriptures here. Jesus is NOT commanding us to be sinlessly flawless in every moment. He is calling us to be whole to become fully what God created us for.
Please look at the greater context of this chapter, which is the Sermon on the Mount, and specifically the last section of the chapter. Jesus is telling us to LOVE our enemies. Matt 5:48 is NOT about sinlessness. It's about LOVING like God.
BTW Mary was and is completely sinless.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Judas Iscariot OBEYED and ate and drank the Last Supper bread and wine. Jesus specifically said that those who do, HAVE eternal life and will be raised on the last day. He does not make exceptions. If Judas Iscariot was not saved to eternal life, then Jesus' statement is falsified, if his meaning was literal. Do you believe Judas was saved after eating the Last Supper?
Judas would have had eternal life, if he didn't throw it away and betray Jesus.
Your problem here is the false and unbiblical OSAS.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Also look at what else you falsify with your theology here. If someone believes in Jesus and puts their trust in him for their salvation, but they "could have" taken the Eucharist but fail to for whatever reason... then if they die and "send themselves" to Hell, then Jesus' words that "whosoever believes in me will not perish, but has eternal life" is falsified because here we have someone who did believe, but they DID perish and did NOT have eternal life.
The demons believe. I guess they don't go to hell.
Belief in Jesus is DOING the will of his Father Matt 7:21.
It's always amazing to me how when it suits Roman Catholicism, the argument is "those are Jesus' exact words!" but when Jesus says "you must be perfect" or "you must eat my flesh", since it puts RC doctrine in a quandary, the argument goes to "that's not what he really meant".
Regarding Judas Iscariot, you're simply running away from the fact that if he ate Jesus' flesh and drank his blood, but did not have eternal life, then Jesus words were falsified.
There's no quandary from the RC point of view. The Eucharist puts life within you unless and until you turn into an apostate like Judas Iscariot. It's just common sense.
Now from the magical OSAS point of view...yeah, that's a quandary.
It has nothing to do with a "magical OSAS view", it has everything to do with Jesus' literal words. Which you accept in one sense when it suits you, and deny in another sense when that suits you.
If Judas ate the Eucharist meal, yet ultimately did not have eternal life, and will not be raised by Jesus on the last day, then Jesus' words are falsified in John chapter 6. It IS a quandary for RC - that is, if they are willing to be honest about it and not squirm around it like you are trying to do.
Again, Catholics don't see communion as a one-time salvific event. We see it as a means of grace whereby we are sanctified unto salvation. You see sanctification and justification as wholly separate concepts. Catholics disagree. That's really all that needs to be said. Plenty of non-Catholics understand it even if they don't agree, but you refuse to understand it because you're preoccupied with these endless gotcha games.
Regarding your view on justification vs sanctification:
Consider what Paul said in Romans 10:10 - "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Do you see that God says justification happens entirely from what's in a person's heart and from belief? Not from any works or performance of any sacrament?
Consider Matthew 16, where the rich man asks what he must do to have eternal life: "Jesus said to him, If thou hast a mind to be perfect, go home and sell all that belongs to thee; give it to the poor, and so the treasure thou hast shall be in heaven; then come back and follow me."
Is this the magic formula, or was Jesus lying?
Of course you will say that selling one's possessions is an expression of the belief in one's heart. The same is true of the sacraments, and to the same purpose of perfection.
Yes, this was the magic formula at that time, to follow the commandments perfectly, thus being without sin, in order to be justified to eternal life - because Jesus had not died on the cross and paid for sin yet. They were still under the Law. Jesus was trying to make the people realize that under the Law, there is no way a person is going to be perfect, so that they needed a Savior.
Jesus death and resurrection brought on the new law of grace, which is the gospel that Paul was tasked to spread to the world.
Now answer the question: do you see that God is saying through Paul that justification happens from what's in a person's heart, NOT from what they do? Or are you saying that Scripture is wrong?
I see it saying we're justified because we believed. I don't see the "entirely" part.
If you say there are fish in the pond and I go and catch one, you'd be right to say I succeeded because I believed you. But I still had to go cast a line.
You also see it saying we're justified with the heart.
It doesn't need to say "entirely". If it says that one is justified with the heart through belief, then clearly justification is not contingent upon anything outside of the heart, such as our action; nor would it make sense for us to be justified in addition through our action if we were already justified with our heart of belief.
Your fish in the pond example completely misses the point - with your heart you're justified, not with your action. That's what the verse clearly says. You did not go cast a line with your heart. You only believed with your heart. You're trying to force your works-based justification into a verse that clearly says the opposite. There just isn't a way around this without being dishonest or in denial of what's right in front of you.
Neither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness.
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Oldbear83 said:
You really do need to seriously consider anger management.
Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:
You really do need to seriously consider anger management.
Unlike you, I'm angry at the right things.
Are you ever going to answer my challenges? What grammar problem? Are the apparitions' messages from the Devil, or not? Are you going to come up empty yet again, and continue to prove yourself a fraud?
Abrahams faith was active through his work. Its not faith because of works. Its faith causes works. Works are the fruit of the vine of faith.Sam Lowry said:4th and Inches said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Coke Bear said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
==> God NEVER demands that you DO anything for your salvation in the form of any sacrament. He doesn't require you to jump through hoops, "normatively" or not. Just believe. It's sad that your theology has warped the simple gospel.
I'm pretty sure that bible tells us that we have to REPENT, BELIEVE, and be BAPTIZED. That sounds like we have to do something. Even if you reject baptism (although that notion is anti-biblical), repenting and believing are doing something.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
=> But NONE of this is what Jesus said. You are putting your own stipulations into Jesus' mouth in order to fit your theology. He makes no exceptions. If there were exceptions, wouldn't Jesus have said so? Especially when it has to do with our eternal fate? And if there are exceptions, wouldn't that falsify what he said, since he made no exceptions?
Are you trying to argue that God can't grant exceptions? What about babies never baptized? What about 14th century Native Americans that never heard the Gospel? Why didn't God list exceptions when he talked about having faith?BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
If, as you say, people "send themselves" to hell for refusing to do what Jesus instructed them regarding the Eucharist - then why doesn't he allow people to "send themselves" to Hell for any other act of disobedience? "You must be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect" - I don't know a single person who has successfully obeyed this. And that includes Mary. So are we all "sending ourselves to Hell?
Any time someone commits a mortal sin, they choose to separate themselves from God. They send themselves to hell.
And that's what Hell is a complete separation from God.
Perfection Another bad eisegesis of the scriptures here. Jesus is NOT commanding us to be sinlessly flawless in every moment. He is calling us to be whole to become fully what God created us for.
Please look at the greater context of this chapter, which is the Sermon on the Mount, and specifically the last section of the chapter. Jesus is telling us to LOVE our enemies. Matt 5:48 is NOT about sinlessness. It's about LOVING like God.
BTW Mary was and is completely sinless.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Judas Iscariot OBEYED and ate and drank the Last Supper bread and wine. Jesus specifically said that those who do, HAVE eternal life and will be raised on the last day. He does not make exceptions. If Judas Iscariot was not saved to eternal life, then Jesus' statement is falsified, if his meaning was literal. Do you believe Judas was saved after eating the Last Supper?
Judas would have had eternal life, if he didn't throw it away and betray Jesus.
Your problem here is the false and unbiblical OSAS.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
Also look at what else you falsify with your theology here. If someone believes in Jesus and puts their trust in him for their salvation, but they "could have" taken the Eucharist but fail to for whatever reason... then if they die and "send themselves" to Hell, then Jesus' words that "whosoever believes in me will not perish, but has eternal life" is falsified because here we have someone who did believe, but they DID perish and did NOT have eternal life.
The demons believe. I guess they don't go to hell.
Belief in Jesus is DOING the will of his Father Matt 7:21.
It's always amazing to me how when it suits Roman Catholicism, the argument is "those are Jesus' exact words!" but when Jesus says "you must be perfect" or "you must eat my flesh", since it puts RC doctrine in a quandary, the argument goes to "that's not what he really meant".
Regarding Judas Iscariot, you're simply running away from the fact that if he ate Jesus' flesh and drank his blood, but did not have eternal life, then Jesus words were falsified.
There's no quandary from the RC point of view. The Eucharist puts life within you unless and until you turn into an apostate like Judas Iscariot. It's just common sense.
Now from the magical OSAS point of view...yeah, that's a quandary.
It has nothing to do with a "magical OSAS view", it has everything to do with Jesus' literal words. Which you accept in one sense when it suits you, and deny in another sense when that suits you.
If Judas ate the Eucharist meal, yet ultimately did not have eternal life, and will not be raised by Jesus on the last day, then Jesus' words are falsified in John chapter 6. It IS a quandary for RC - that is, if they are willing to be honest about it and not squirm around it like you are trying to do.
Again, Catholics don't see communion as a one-time salvific event. We see it as a means of grace whereby we are sanctified unto salvation. You see sanctification and justification as wholly separate concepts. Catholics disagree. That's really all that needs to be said. Plenty of non-Catholics understand it even if they don't agree, but you refuse to understand it because you're preoccupied with these endless gotcha games.
Regarding your view on justification vs sanctification:
Consider what Paul said in Romans 10:10 - "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."
Do you see that God says justification happens entirely from what's in a person's heart and from belief? Not from any works or performance of any sacrament?
Consider Matthew 16, where the rich man asks what he must do to have eternal life: "Jesus said to him, If thou hast a mind to be perfect, go home and sell all that belongs to thee; give it to the poor, and so the treasure thou hast shall be in heaven; then come back and follow me."
Is this the magic formula, or was Jesus lying?
Of course you will say that selling one's possessions is an expression of the belief in one's heart. The same is true of the sacraments, and to the same purpose of perfection.
Yes, this was the magic formula at that time, to follow the commandments perfectly, thus being without sin, in order to be justified to eternal life - because Jesus had not died on the cross and paid for sin yet. They were still under the Law. Jesus was trying to make the people realize that under the Law, there is no way a person is going to be perfect, so that they needed a Savior.
Jesus death and resurrection brought on the new law of grace, which is the gospel that Paul was tasked to spread to the world.
Now answer the question: do you see that God is saying through Paul that justification happens from what's in a person's heart, NOT from what they do? Or are you saying that Scripture is wrong?
I see it saying we're justified because we believed. I don't see the "entirely" part.
If you say there are fish in the pond and I go and catch one, you'd be right to say I succeeded because I believed you. But I still had to go cast a line.
You also see it saying we're justified with the heart.
It doesn't need to say "entirely". If it says that one is justified with the heart through belief, then clearly justification is not contingent upon anything outside of the heart, such as our action; nor would it make sense for us to be justified in addition through our action if we were already justified with our heart of belief.
Your fish in the pond example completely misses the point - with your heart you're justified, not with your action. That's what the verse clearly says. You did not go cast a line with your heart. You only believed with your heart. You're trying to force your works-based justification into a verse that clearly says the opposite. There just isn't a way around this without being dishonest or in denial of what's right in front of you.
Neither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness.
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
does it? In James, it says faith without works is dead..
Jesus is the vine and you are the branch grafted in by faith. Thru Christ, you are rooted in good soil and the fruit naturally appears.
Works are a byproduct of true faith, those who claim faith without works is like the fig tree with no fruit.
Works are not required, they are the natural result of true faith. Paul clearly states this in corinthians.
The fruit of the spirit is much like the fruit in your garden. An apple tree doesnt need to try harder, a strawberry plant doesnt need to think about growing..
It does, if you read further on in James 2.
Oldbear83 said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Oldbear83 said:
You really do need to seriously consider anger management.
Unlike you, I'm angry at the right things.
Are you ever going to answer my challenges? What grammar problem? Are the apparitions' messages from the Devil, or not? Are you going to come up empty yet again, and continue to prove yourself a fraud?
To quote a fave POTUS, 'there you go again'.
First off, you get angry at a whole lot of unimportant things, and toss off insults on a hair trigger. Yes, I have been snarky in the past, but brother you show a lot of hate in your posts and for someone selling himself as the good guy that's unwise.
And no, I have not been 'coming up empty' in these discussions. I don't feel obliged to engage every bitter thing tossed my way, nor pursue an argument that does not serve our Lord or at least provide ground for building wisdom and understanding.
Now with regard to what you call 'apparitions', it depends on specifics. In a lot of cases, we have no hard evidence except the word of witnesses, such as the Fatima visions. In those cases, I inspect the record of the witnesses and compare it to Scripture, as God will not contradict Himself.
Now the Shroud is a different case, as we do have hard evidence. Further, there is no claim regarding the Shroud that is in opposition to Biblical accounts, so if someone accepts the Shroud as true they are not sinning in doing so, unless they treat the Shroud as the object of worship rather than pointing to the Lord we are to worship.
Also, I simply do not believe that after so much work causing humans to reject any indication that God exists, let alone the Gospel, that Satan would change his mind and decide to advance interest in Jesus Christ, or cause people to talk about our Lord and seriously consider His Gospel.
As for the grammar problem, you can go back and see it in the post I responded to. I would not want to embarrass you by pointing it out directly.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
I'm only trying, if possible, to spark some curiosity on your part about the ideas that you mean to criticize. Nothing more. As I've tried to explain before, the specific issue with justification has to do with different meanings of the word as translated from the Greek and what Scripture has to say about it at different stages of the Christian life. Feel free to look further into that or not.
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
I'm only trying, if possible, to spark some curiosity on your part about the ideas that you mean to criticize. Nothing more. As I've tried to explain before, the specific issue with justification has to do with different meanings of the word as translated from the Greek and what Scripture has to say about it at different stages of the Christian life. Feel free to look further into that or not.
Double talking does not spark interest in anyone.
You: Yes, we are justified by both our faith and works.
Also you: No, we are not saved by both our faith and works.
Oldbear83 said:
The grammar issue:
You posted this: "Do YOU believe that those apparitions, which purportedly commanded a church be built in Mary's honor and to spread devotion to HER "Immaculate Heart" all over the world ISN'T from the Devil?"
Errors include capitalization and single/plural misdesignation.
As to the rest of your ... outburst, you are at best inaccurate in your appraisal of how I post or my attention to facts. Your contentions are inconsistent, unsupported by Scripture, and frankly display a rank incivility which is not useful in this discussion, nor the mark of someone speaking by the Holy Spirit.
I think you would do better to simply consider what someone posts, before throwing back attacks like that. Especially since more often than not, I side with you on the issue. But certainly not your tone.
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
I'm only trying, if possible, to spark some curiosity on your part about the ideas that you mean to criticize. Nothing more. As I've tried to explain before, the specific issue with justification has to do with different meanings of the word as translated from the Greek and what Scripture has to say about it at different stages of the Christian life. Feel free to look further into that or not.
Double talking does not spark interest in anyone.
You: Yes, we are justified by both our faith and works.
Also you: No, we are not saved by both our faith and works.
Again, not me.
Oldbear83 said:
More name calling and dishonest hate from you.
I will pray for you, sir, you are in need of it
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
I'm only trying, if possible, to spark some curiosity on your part about the ideas that you mean to criticize. Nothing more. As I've tried to explain before, the specific issue with justification has to do with different meanings of the word as translated from the Greek and what Scripture has to say about it at different stages of the Christian life. Feel free to look further into that or not.
Double talking does not spark interest in anyone.
You: Yes, we are justified by both our faith and works.
Also you: No, we are not saved by both our faith and works.
Again, not me.
Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?
Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?
Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
I'm only trying, if possible, to spark some curiosity on your part about the ideas that you mean to criticize. Nothing more. As I've tried to explain before, the specific issue with justification has to do with different meanings of the word as translated from the Greek and what Scripture has to say about it at different stages of the Christian life. Feel free to look further into that or not.
Double talking does not spark interest in anyone.
You: Yes, we are justified by both our faith and works.
Also you: No, we are not saved by both our faith and works.
Again, not me.
Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?
Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:
For the sake of clarity, OldBear, let's focus on this:
Do you believe that the message of the purported marian apparitions:... do you believe these to be satanic messages?
- that a church be built in Mary's honor
- to spread world-wide devotion to HER "Immaculate Heart"
- to make sacrifices to God as a reparation for sins
- and to make sacrifices to console HER for humanity's sins
BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam Lowry said:BusyTarpDuster2017 said:Sam LowryNeither your heart, nor your works, nor anything else of yours justifies you. But it is by believing that we receive God's grace when we ask his forgiveness. said:Quote:Quote:Quote:
Neither Scripture nor I said that "your heart justifies you".
But as Scripture clearly states, it is with your heart that you believe, and that's how you're justified. That clearly means that justification does not happen the way you and your Church states, that is with both belief and works.
Scripture also says that we're justified by works and not by faith alone. I would recommend this article if you're interested in how Catholics harmonize the two passages.
So, you're saying Paul is wrong?
Not at all. Both passages are true.
Can't be. Except if you're prone to double-talking, which we all know by now is your Church's MO.
Like I said, read the article if you're interested. Feel free to disagree, but at least understand that what you dismiss as double-talk is a carefully thought theology based on Scripture and tradition.
I don't accept links. I'm not asking for what that author thinks and believes, I'm asking what YOU think and believe. You're not going to defer to someone else's faith for your salvation, are you? If you aren't expressing it yourself, I don't know that's what you truly understand and believe.
Do you truly think that when Scripture directly says we are saved by faith through grace, NOT of works.... that somehow that can be reasoned to mean that we are saved by faith AND works?
No.
No, what?
No, Catholics don't believe that we're saved by works.
And you don't understand why the rational world sees this as double talk? You stated that justification is by both our faith and works.
The Bible stated it, not me.
So... do you not see that these kinds of responses and your posting style show you to be a disingenuous person trying to skirt the truth, rather than seeking the truth? I mean, it's obvious to everyone else. It's why you've developed such a bad reputation here. And it's a perfect demonstration why Roman Catholicism is not of the truth. It's adherents have to play games in order to defend their teachings.
I'm only trying, if possible, to spark some curiosity on your part about the ideas that you mean to criticize. Nothing more. As I've tried to explain before, the specific issue with justification has to do with different meanings of the word as translated from the Greek and what Scripture has to say about it at different stages of the Christian life. Feel free to look further into that or not.
Double talking does not spark interest in anyone.
You: Yes, we are justified by both our faith and works.
Also you: No, we are not saved by both our faith and works.
Again, not me.
Do you believe we are justified by our faith AND our works?
Do you believe we are saved by our faith PLUS our works?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/faith-and-works-0
I didn't ask the link, I asked YOU.
